Knitting & Crocheting | Gentle Talk to Help You Unwind

​Knitting & Crocheting | Gentle Talk to Help You Unwind

​Knitting & Crocheting
(Original airdate: Sept 25, 2019)

as we have a conversation about the mundane. One thing that we try to deliver is a conversation that is a little less than fascinating so that you can just feel free to drift off. Thank you for joining us. We hope you will listen and sleep. I'm your host and joining me is. I want to welcome Caitlin Driscoll to the Insomnia Project.

Caitlin:  Thank you for welcoming me.

Marco:  I am m very. I'm gonna try not to sound excited, but I'm very excited because we are going to cover a topic that one of our listeners had asked me to do an episode on and that is crochet. Crocheting and knitting. Which you're a fan of.

Caitlin:  Yeah, two of my favourite pastimes how

Marco:  did you get into that?

Caitlin:  My family are big knitters and crocheters and sewers and weavers.

Marco:  Really?

Caitlin:  Yeah, big time. Lots of. My mom has a loom. She has three spinning wheels, so she um, spins her own yarn.

Marco:  Okay, so let's, you need to tell me about that. We're gonna go to spinning yarn. So how. Walk me through that process.

Caitlin:  So, ah, from my perspective, that process involves my mom ordering wool online.

Marco:  So raw wool, like chunks of almost cotton bat. Like, is it like batten? Is it like just.

Caitlin:  Yeah, it's surprisingly greasy because, um, wool has something called lanolin in it that people use for like hand lotion, but I find it way too greasy. So it's like cotton batting, but it's um, sort of thicker and greasier and it'll come like, it'll be curly and then some of it'll be full of like bits of plants.

Marco:  Oh, wow.

Caitlin:  And like, so you have to card it.

Marco:  So if I'm not mistaken, that's like combing it with some kind of tool that looks like a big comb.

Caitlin:  Like a cat brush.

Marco:  Okay. Like a cat brush.

Caitlin:  A giant cat brush. You have two of them and you put the wool between the two and then you um, card them together, like brush them opposite of each other so you get all of the, um, junk out of the wool. And then some of the oil also breaks down.

Marco:  Okay. So she'll card them and then what will she do? Will she twist it and put it on the spinning wheel? Forgive me. I know. I'm just trying to think of what I remember from shows on TV or Sleeping Beauty or any of those things.

Caitlin:  Yeah, that's basically it. She would start, um, by twisting a piece of the wool into sort of a, into a strand and then hooking it around a part of the spinning wheel. And then she had, there's a petal on the spinning wheel. And you keep adding yarn, adding, uh, wool to the yarn as you pedal the spinning wheel and you twist it with your one hand as you keep feeding it into the spinning wheel.

Marco:  Wow. And so then, then when she uses the wheel, she spins it and it, and it winds it up or like turns it into more of a string, like.

Caitlin:  Yeah, essentially because you keep twisting your fingers as you feed, uh, the wool into, um, the spinning wheel and then it, it turns around and around and creates a ball yarn.

Marco:  And. Okay, so now we've got yarn.

Caitlin:  Mhm.

Marco:  What does she do with the yarn or what do you do with that yarn?

Caitlin:  Well, she would sometimes dye it.

Marco:  Oh my goodness.

Caitlin:  With kool Aid?

Marco:  Really?

Caitlin:  In a crock pot? Yes.

Marco:  That's amazing. Okay, now she's got the perfect color. And I love that she's using Kool Aid to dye her wool.

Caitlin:  Yeah. And it smells so weird. It would make the whole house because she would use the crock pot and it would get hot. And so the smell of, like, wet wool but also, like, fruit punch was always that smell in my house when I was a kid.

Marco:  And what is the difference between purchasing wool yarn and making it yourself? Like, is there. When she uses it, is it more tactile? Is it better? Do you get a better quality product once you've worked your own?

Caitlin:  Well, they say that the, um, like, uh, 100% wool or 100% cotton or whatever kind of fabric you're using is going to be warmer and more breathable, um, of a garment. But the stuff that you usually buy in stores is, like, synthetic.

Marco:  Sure.

Caitlin:  So it's, you know, not as nice, won't wash as well, and. Yeah.

Marco:  Wow. All right, so let's get into your. What brought you to knitting and crocheting?

Caitlin:  Well, I think the first thing that brought me to knitting was I was in, um, Brownies as a young girl, and to get your badges, you had to prove that you could do certain tasks like braiding hair or knitting. So I wanted to get my craft badge, and I knew my mom knit, so I was like, mom, it's time. Teach me to knit.

Marco:  And for international listeners, Brownies is like Girl Guides. It's an organization that young girls would go in to learn skills and develop traits and all kinds of useful things.

Caitlin:  Correct? Yeah. I mean, all I really remember doing was learning how to braid.

Marco:  Well, that's useful, too. You never know when there's a wedding party that is, uh, in need of a good braid.

Caitlin:  Exactly.

Marco:  So what is the most difficult aspect of knitting for you?

Caitlin:  Most difficult aspect of knitting is keeping your yarn, um, ah, taut but not tight.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  So you can get, um. If you really get into, like, intricate patterns.

Marco:  Sure.

Caitlin:  So, for example, a cable pattern where you're taking, uh, pieces of yarn that you've knit and you're folding them over each other. So you're trading needles.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  That can get really. That can kind of make your fabric or whatever you're knitting kind of tight or taut, and then it's very hard to continue when it gets too tight on the needles.

Marco:  I see, I see. So you've gotta have the right amount of tension.

Caitlin:  Exactly.

Marco:  When you knit.

Caitlin:  Similar to crochet.

Marco:  So what is the difference between crochet and knitting for people who might not be aware and think, oh, I don't know what they are.

Caitlin:  Um, so this will be a weird description because I've never really looked it up. Uh, so knitting is when you have several, uh, rows of knots that you are working together to make a big piece of something.

Marco:  Sure.

Caitlin:  And crochet is when you're just working with one knot after another in a

Marco:  chain with one needle. Right. So crochet would be one needle. Is that fair?

Caitlin:  Yeah. Crochet is a hook.

Marco:  Sorry, Is a hook. That's right. It's a hook on the end of a smaller, um, stick like, instrument, about

Caitlin:  the size of a pencil.

Marco:  Whereas knitting involves longer needles. Two or more you could use. Correct.

Caitlin:  The truth? Yes.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  You could. I've used four or five to make socks.

Marco:  Because you're making it tubular. Right. So you need those, um, sticks to sort of make a circular pattern of enclosure. Is that fair?

Caitlin:  Yes, that is accurate.

Marco:  My mom's a knitter and a crocheter. And most people will know crochet work if you think of an afghan.

Caitlin:  Yes.

Marco:  So if you think afghan, you're in the world of crocheting. Or sweaters that have big, bigger holes in them. Because you can crochet a sweater, if I'm not mistaken. Whereas knitting is more tightly woven yarn, like fabric hats, sweaters, socks.

Caitlin:  Yeah, you can make hats and sweaters with crochet as well.

Marco:  Uh, you can see. So there goes. My definition is off.

Caitlin:  So crochet is not. You don't often make sweaters, uh, or bigger garments with crocheting because it takes up a lot more yarn.

Marco:  Oh, crocheting does.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Oh, I see.

Caitlin:  Yeah. Because the way you're making the knots, they're just a lot thicker, so it's faster, but you're using a lot more yarn than you would with knitting.

Marco:  And, um, is it hard to start?

Caitlin:  It's not hard to start crocheting, um, because all you need is one knot and a loop.

Marco:  One knot in a loop, and then you're off to the races.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  What have you crocheted? Tell me some things you would have crocheted.

Caitlin:  My favorite thing that I ever crocheted was this Afghan, um, that was made of stars, like in star patterns.

Marco:  Oh, cool.

Caitlin:  And I made. So my mom says that there's, um, a knitting crocheting curse.

Marco:  Oh, I need to hear about this.

Caitlin:  The curse is when you start dating someone and you decide you wanna knit them something or crochet them something. By the time you finish that thing, your relationship will Be.

Marco:  Oh, my goodness.

Caitlin:  So it's a curse because you love somebody and you want to make them something, but you put all this effort into the, uh, blanket or whatever it is, and often then you break up, and then you never see the blanket you made ever again, which is what happened to me. Then.

Marco:  Wouldn't it be wise to crochet or knit something small and quick to see if the relationship will last?

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  So what's this like? I guess a coaster. You could crochet a coaster.

Caitlin:  You could crochet a coaster. You could crochet like a, um, like a coffee, uh, mug warmer. Or like, people make those things that go over like a cozy.

Marco:  Like a tea cozy. A coffee mug cozy.

Caitlin:  Yep.

Marco:  Yeah.

Caitlin:  You could do. Oh, a scarf or a belt.

Marco:  You could crochet a belt.

Caitlin:  You could. I mean, it wouldn't be a great

Marco:  belt, but nonetheless, you could. It would be a quick. It would be a quick crochet.

Caitlin:  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Marco:  What do you love about crocheting versus what do you love about knitting?

Caitlin:  What I love about crocheting is that you can kind of make it up as you go. So you can build, like a hat, for example. You just start with a couple little loops, and then you can make it as big as you want or as small as you want. You can add a beak to it if you want. And you don't need to sort of follow a pattern. You can just.

Marco:  Off you go, and you can just figure it out as you go. Once you've developed a sort of crochet skill.

Caitlin:  Yeah, I would say, um, what I love about knitting is that I can do it without looking at it.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  But with crochet, you kind of have to be paying attention. Sometimes you can just feel it, and you're like, oh, I'm tying a knot. I'm tying another knot. But with knitting, I don't even need to look at it.

Marco:  It's just sort of like, uh, by rote. You're just kind of going. So let me ask you this. So you're. As many of my guests are, you're a artist. You're an actor, writer, performer, director, etc. Producer. Uh, do you ever knit on set when you're waiting to go on set? Like I said, I know a lot of actors, both male and female, have taken up knitting because of the time it takes between takes or when you're waiting for your scene to come up?

Caitlin:  Oh, yeah, I definitely. I would choose crocheting over knitting.

Marco:  Okay. Why? Why is that?

Caitlin:  Okay, because you can stop at any point and not be worried you're going to lose your place.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  For me, because I often, if I'm crocheting, um, I'm making up a pattern in my head. But if I'm following a knitting pattern and I have to put it down halfway through a row.

Marco:  Problematic. It's hard to get. It's hard to pick it back up.

Caitlin:  Yeah. And also, dropping your knitting needles, um, can make a loud, clangy noise, because often they're metal.

Marco:  Sure.

Caitlin:  And I just hate distracting people.

Marco:  Oh, I see. I see. Whereas with crochet, you just have the one hook, and whether you drop it or not, it's not gonna make so much noise as if you're doing it with knitting.

Caitlin:  I did. I was doing a theater show, um, years ago, where I got a lot of the women interested in knitting. So we had a bit of a knitting circle going on, and we all brought our knitting to rehearsal. And, uh, two days later, the stage manager had to ban the knitting in rehearsal because people were dropping their needles too much.

Marco:  Oh, that's too bad.

Caitlin:  And it was causing distraction.

Marco:  You should have taught crochet then.

Caitlin:  I know. I don't know what I was thinking. Next time.

Marco:  So you told us about your journey into knitting. Tell us about your journey into crocheting.

Caitlin:  My Journey into Crocheting sounds like a

Marco:  great title of a book. My Journey into Crocheting.

Caitlin:  My autobiography. I think I started because. Because I wanted to. I just wanted to learn how to do it.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  Um, and then, uh, I think.

>> Karim: Yeah.

Caitlin:  Ah, my mom just showed me. She was like, yeah, just a couple loops. And then you just keep hooking through the loops. So I didn't learn specific types of, uh, knots, which crochet is full of. Um, and I just. I made a hat really fast.

Marco:  Really?

Caitlin:  Like, it took me maybe two hours.

Marco:  Like, what kind of a hat? Like, was it more of a, um. What do you call those? A beanie. Oh, like a toque. Or was it more like a, uh. What's the French hat called? I can't think anymore.

Caitlin:  Oh, a beret.

Marco:  A beret. Was it more beret?

Caitlin:  Like, it was more like a toque. It was very, um. Gosh. Something I feel like, um, someone would wear in a grunge band in 1996.

Marco:  So a short toque?

Caitlin:  Yeah, yeah.

Marco:  A cross between a toque and a beanie, if you will.

Caitlin:  Yeah. Nothing that's gonna really keep anyone that warm. It was very exciting.

Marco:  Do you still have it?

Caitlin:  Oh, no, I gave it. I gave everything away.

Marco:  Oh, you give it away?

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Oh, wow.

Caitlin:  I don't keep anything that I knit or crochet.

Marco:  Not even a blanket. Like, not even an afghan. Um, or you don't have.

Caitlin:  No.

Marco:  Oh, I need to show you some. Some that are just outside the studio that my mom has. Has knit me. She's a great knitter as well.

>> Nidhi Khanna: Ah.

Marco:  Yeah. She often says, and I don't know if your mom's ever said this, you can tell the skill of a knitter by looking on the underside.

Caitlin:  Very true. That's where all the mistakes are, right? Yeah.

Marco:  And so you can hide a lot or, you know, show your talent by what is unseen.

Caitlin:  That's very true. I find the art of when you're crocheting and you have loose ends, it's m far easier to hide loose ends in crocheted work than it is in knitted work.

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Marco:  With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit bill.comproven for a special offer, what would be some advice you would give someone who wants to start crocheting?

Caitlin:  I would say, well, we live in an age where you can learn anything on the Internet.

Marco:  It's so funny. I just had a guest and I asked about guitar, and they said a similar sort of thing.

Caitlin:  I would definitely, um, there's a great, uh. Am I allowed to shout out people's YouTube channels?

Marco:  Of course, of course.

Caitlin:  So I follow this woman, um, who has a channel called Crobie Patterns.

Marco:  Crowbee.

Caitlin:  Yeah. C, R, O, B. Yeah. Um, I'm not sure, ah, where she's based out of, but, uh, she's really good at explaining. She does a lot of crochet.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  And, uh, she's very good at explaining all of the knots and what you do on each row. And it's like super slow, really clear. I would say follow her. She's a pretty good teacher.

Marco:  Okay, fair enough.

Caitlin:  Actually, I think patterns are key to knitting and crocheting success. You can sort of design your own thing or you can find stuff online. Um, my sister Alison is actually a, um, knitwear designer and she sells patterns on her Etsy shop. So she's known as also Alison the needle nerd. So you can find her on Etsy at a L, L, sew, S, E, W, and then her name, Alison with one L. And, uh, yeah, she's got a lot of cool kits you can order or just, uh, stuff that's already made, you could buy it. And she's a really talented newwear designer.

Marco:  Is there a particular yarn to start with or a particular hook to start with that you would recommend? Because there's different size hooks. Correct?

Caitlin:  That's very true. I, um, would start with a good, you know, five to seven millimeter hook.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  Um, not too small, not too big. And I think I would just get some, like. Well, I think choosing yarn is very important.

Marco:  Okay, see, this is, this is where we need to delve. Why? Tell me more.

Caitlin:  Because you don't want to get sick of your yarn.

Marco:  Oh, you could get sick of your

Caitlin:  yarn, you could get sick of it. Like, just, you know, because depending on what you're making, so m. You're tying all these knots, you're doing the same thing over and over again. Often, especially when you're first learning, you'd just be doing, like, the same type of knot. And if you start looking at your yarn or you don't like the texture of it because you have to touch it quite a bit, that's a big

Marco:  thing for my mom. She's like, I don't like the feel of that yarn. I don't like to buy cheap yarn, is what she says. Because oftentimes you'll see these big sort of discount bins of yarn, or people will give her yarn and ask her to make baby clothes. And she's like, I don't like the feel. I don't think it's gonna feel nice. She goes, so I always tell them, I will get the yarn. Don't worry about it. Just tell me the color. Because for her, it's the texture of the actual cloth or the yarn.

Caitlin:  Yeah. Yeah. Because you do have to touch it a lot, and I think that's it can get. There's a lot of, like, cheap yarn that has, like, a kind of. Just because it's so synthetic can feel kind of gross. But it's always a good thing to learn on.

Marco:  Yeah. Because you can make as many mistakes as you want, and it doesn't really matter. And I guess it's forgiving in a weird sort of way.

Caitlin:  Yeah. I really like, uh, crocheting with, like, a cotton blend.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  Because I love the texture of, like, a cottony yarn. A really good thing to start with would be, like, a dishcloth.

Marco:  Making m. It.

Caitlin:  Yeah, Just a square. Just a small square dishcloth with, like, a cotton yarn.

Marco:  Perfect.

Caitlin:  Very good.

Marco:  Do you make your own dishcloths?

Caitlin:  No, I tend to use sponges.

Marco:  I've had a lot of, like, hard, bristly, round dish. Crocheted sponges, I guess you would call them. I don't know what else to call them. But, like. Yeah, I don't know if it. Would it be a dishcloth, a washing cloth, um, dishwasher? I don't know, but I've had a lot of those. And I always feel bad to throw them out once they get really bad. But that's what they're made for, right?

Caitlin:  Yeah. I mean, it's cool that you can make your own household products. Totally. But I like making, like, blankets and clothes. Hats, I think, and socks. Love making socks.

Marco:  You like Making socks?

Caitlin:  Yeah. I've never crocheted a sock that you didn't like. Well, I've just never crocheted a sock.

Marco:  Well, you've never crocheted a sock, but you've knit socks?

Caitlin:  Yes.

Marco:  They seem like they'd be labor intensive.

Caitlin:  When I first learned how to turn a heel on a sock. So you're knitting a tube? Sure. You either knit it from the top to the toe or from the toe to the top.

Marco:  Oh, I see.

Caitlin:  And when I first learned how to make a heel, they call it turning a heel in your business.

Marco:  Listen, Important to know.

Caitlin:  It blew my mind.

Marco:  Really blew my mind. What's the key to turning a heel?

Caitlin:  Well, you have to do. Oh, gosh. What's it called? Um, there's a specific name now, I can't remember, like a hitch knot or something like that. Um, but it's about you have to decrease and then increase, uh, in the right way so that the yarn changes direction.

Marco:  Oh, okay.

Caitlin:  Which I just think is so cool.

Marco:  That is cool. Can you tell me what knit one, purl two means? I don't. I've heard it. I know that if I'm in an improv scene and we're knitting, we're gonna say those terms, but I don't know what knit one, purl two means.

Caitlin:  Well, that's just a, uh, pattern. That would just be a pattern. So there's two basic stitches in knitting. There's knitting and there's purling.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  And so knitting, I, uh, would say is, um, if you're looking at the fabric, and when you're knitting something, that's the quote unquote, right side of the fabric. If you're purling something, that's the quote unquote wrong side.

Marco:  So the inside of a sweater would be a purl, and the outside would be a knit.

Caitlin:  Yeah. If you do something basic.

Marco:  You've just blown my mind. Because now it's like. Now it totally makes sense to me.

Caitlin:  The knit one, purl two would be like a ribbed pattern.

Marco:  Oh.

Caitlin:  It would be like the top of a sock.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  If that makes sense. So it would be a little, um, sticky outy on one part.

Marco:  On the other side. And the purl would be the inside.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  And then it would be the outside of that little ribby. Kind of.

Caitlin:  Exactly.

Marco:  When you're making a sock sock, do you start from the toe to the outside portion of the sock or from the hole of the sock? I don't know what you'd call it. To the toe.

Caitlin:  The mouth of the sock.

Marco:  The mouth of the sock.

Caitlin:  I like starting from the toe. It's so rewarding.

Marco:  Is it?

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Cause you see it come to life.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  And you start with just like a row of, um, stitches, and then you knit out from that in both directions.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  So you don't see your beginning of the, of the piece anymore. You just knit out.

Marco:  Wow.

Caitlin:  It just becomes a sock. And you can decide how, um, much yarn you want to use. So you can decide at any point. You know, I'm gonna go all the way up to the knee if I want, or I'm gonna stop at the ankle. It's all up to you.

Marco:  Oh, that's great. What was the last thing you knit?

Caitlin:  The last thing I knit was.

Marco:  Or are you involved in a knitting project right now?

Caitlin:  Right now I am crocheting an afghan.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  And I think I'm gonna be doing it maybe for the rest of my life. I don't know.

Marco:  What's your pattern?

Caitlin:  Oh, it is a, um, I don't actually know what this pattern name is, but it's like those afghans that's just like little chunks of crochet and then a hole and a chunk of crochet. Crochet in a hole. Um, and I'm just going around and around.

Marco:  How important is the hole when you crochet? Because we talk about the finished product and, you know, um, the part that we sort of see and can hold. But with crocheting, unlike with knitting that I know, the holes are important for the pattern.

Caitlin:  Very true. Because if you. Same with. Same with knitting. If it, if it gets too small or if the yarn gets too tight, you can have a very warped looking blanket.

Marco:  I see. So there's a key there as well. Before we end, I want to ask you about color, and I want to also touch base on loom, because we didn't talk about the loom.

Caitlin:  Right. Yes.

Marco:  So what colors do you like to use? And are there any colors you avoid using?

Caitlin:  Um, I like to. Lately I have been really into yarn that, um, is multicolored so that I don't have to change yarns. So I like watching the pattern come through as I'm crocheting or knitting.

Marco:  So that could be yarn that changes color as the string, let's say, goes on, or the yarn piece goes on. So it could go from like a soft brown to a yellow to a gray to a white back to a soft brown. I'm just picking random colors. These sound pretty horrible. But you get my dress for anyone?

Caitlin:  Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then sort of There are some yarns that you can buy specifically for socks that will be a very specific pattern by the time you're done with it.

Marco:  Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's really cool.

Caitlin:  The technology is beyond me.

Marco:  So let's loom.

Caitlin:  Okay. Let's loom.

Marco:  I know it's what your mom does, but walk me, first of all. Doesn't loom take a lot of space?

Caitlin:  So much space.

Marco:  Okay.

Caitlin:  It's pretty incredible. And my family actually just. My mom and dad just moved, so they had to downsize. I have no idea what she going to do with her loom.

Marco:  It's like a piano. When you have a piano and you're downsizing, like, what do we do with this piano? No one wants it.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Because everybody's moving into smaller spaces. But it's such a cool thing to have.

Caitlin:  I know. And. But then you're like, maybe we could make the piano also be a cupboard or our computer.

Marco:  Yeah, fair enough.

Caitlin:  So.

Marco:  But what you do. What do you do with loom? What could it be?

Caitlin:  I really don't know. Because you can't put anything on it. No. So it's basically just like a wooden structure with a series of, uh, strings that you then weave other yarn through. So you can't use, um, it for anything else.

Marco:  No, you got a. A loom is used to loom.

Caitlin:  That's right.

Marco:  Any tips with. About using a loom that you can think of? I know it's your mom's thing, not yours.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Or any experiences you've had with the loom?

Caitlin:  Well, I made, um, like a loom. I remember doing this when I was a kid where you take a, um, cereal box and you flatten it and you cut it in half, and then you cut little slits on the sides all the way around, and you wrap, uh, string through that, and then you can loom yourself like a little, uh, you can use it as a lube.

Marco:  Oh, really?

Caitlin:  Wow.

Marco:  And what did you make with that?

Caitlin:  I think I made a bag, because I could do it all the way around. I just put yarn all the way around it and use a little comb to press it all down and. Excuse me. And I think, yeah, I made a bag. I have no idea where it ended up.

Marco:  That's so wonderful. Well, I'm sure, like you said, if you want to know how to make your own loom in a loom, a bag, you could go on the Internet and find a YouTube video of some sort.

Caitlin:  Yeah.

Marco:  Well, Caitlin Driscoll, thank you so much for being on the episode today.

Caitlin:  Thank you so much.

Marco:  Thank you for sharing your knowledge about crocheting, knitting looms, spinning yarn, texture, all that stuff.

Caitlin:  Well, it was my pleasure, and I hope people fell asleep.

Marco:  If they did or if they didn't, they certainly got to walk through the wonderful world of the things we can do with, uh, knitting needles and crochet hooks. Thank you once again.

Caitlin:  Thank you as always.

Marco:  You're listening to the Insomnia Project. Please share share this show with your friends, families and loved ones and those who cannot sleep. You can find us on itunes, Stitcher Radio Public, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We hope you enjoyed it. And until next time,