Pen Art | Soft Spoken Conversation for Relaxation & Sleep

Looking for a relaxing sleep podcast to help you unwind, quiet busy thoughts, or gently fall asleep? In this episode of The Insomnia Project, Marco welcomes special guest Steve Papadopoulos for a calm and thoughtful conversation about the art of drawing with a simple ballpoint pen.
Steve shares insights into his creative process, reflecting on the patience, precision, and quiet focus required to create detailed pen art. Together, Marco and Steve explore how something as simple as pen on paper can become a meditative and soothing practice.
As the conversation drifts through art, creativity, and the subtle details of drawing, it unfolds in the relaxed and easygoing style listeners have come to expect — a gentle, low-stakes discussion designed to quiet the mind and ease you toward rest.
Whether you’re settling in for bedtime, unwinding during the day, or enjoying calm background conversation while you work, this episode offers a peaceful listening experience that supports relaxation and sleep.
So draw a line from this episode to slumber — and if you don’t make it to the end, you’ve paid us the highest compliment.
#sleeppodcast #insomniapodcast #relaxingpodcast #sleepconversation #calmpodcast #bedtimepodcast #fallasleepfast

​Pen Art
(Original airdate: June 20, 2018)

Marco Timpano:  Welcome to the Insomnia Project. Sit back, relax and listen as we have a conversation about the mundane. One thing that we try to deliver is a conversation that's, uh, less than fascinating so that you can just feel free to drift off. Thank you for joining us. We hope you will listen and sleep. I'm your host, Marco Timpano. Today's show is brought to you by bar. That's right. If you have a pooch at home and you want to give them a little special treat, getbarkbox.com the insomniaproject. And if you order a six or 12 month subscription, you'll get one month free. And you know that Nidhi's a huge fan of it for her pooch Zina, who often makes an appearance on our show. But today's show we have a special guest, Stephen Papadopoulos. Stephen, welcome to the show.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Thank you.

Marco Timpano:  Steven, uh, is a friend of mine who is also a visual artist. And one of the great things and one of the reasons why I was like, I want to get Stephen on the show, I want to get you on the show is that, um, I look at your art on Instagram and if our listeners want to follow you at Spulosart S P U L O S art, they can see what you're working on.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  As well, they can go to StephenPopadopoulos CA and I'll put it on our show notes because that's a, that's a long name. Yeah, Right. And, uh, they can check out what you do. Great. So, Stephen, I wanted to ask you because your style is very unique. You use pens, you kind of make lines. First of all, how would you describe this particular method of producing your art? Like, what exactly does it entail? And I know that art is a visual medium, so to have to explain it on a medium like a podcast is a little unusual. But, uh, just to sort of set the tone of what, what's around me. Because we're in your studio right now.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah. I guess for me, a lot of the work is, um, more about exploring abstraction, but also color. I, um, really enjoy color theory, so I explore those ideas within my work. Uh, the linear repetition are a lot of my interests within, uh, my body of work. There is a sort of quality to it that I look for in. Within the shapes. They kind of.

Marco Timpano:  They kind of like, they kind of come to life with not just the colors, because you use vibrant colors, but this. The. Would you say geometric shapes?

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah, they would be geometric. Um, the shapes come out of through layering process. So I guess there's no end game to the work initially. I don't start with an idea, a composition in my mind like some artists may do. Um, whether it be figurative and knowing the placement of everything, I start with one simple shape at times or a sort of automatic sort of drawing. And through the layering process, it informs the next move.

Marco Timpano:  I see.

Steven Papadopoulos:  In a sense. So I'll keep going until, I guess the. The artwork is resolved in that sense.

Marco Timpano:  So you layer. When you talk about layering, you layer, um, pen, pen, lines, gesso and acrylic paint on top of each other.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yes.

Marco Timpano:  And you. And there's a process of sanding that as well. Correct.

Steven Papadopoulos:  With the acrylic, uh, gesso, uh, which gives it a sense of opacity, uh, through the layering. So it's sort of a painstaking process of layering the clear gesso and sanding repeatedly. And the work through the layers will inform something next of I might see within the work. So it takes. Sometimes, it would take a lot of time to look and just sort of stare at the work, uh, for hours and hours before I decide next of what to create.

Marco Timpano:  I mean, to say it's impressive really doesn't do it justice. What's fascinating to me is the pen part of it. So you take a ballpoint pen. Does it matter? The ink, color?

Steven Papadopoulos:  No, I usually use black ballpoint pen. It has an interesting quality. Through the layering, it will tend to yellow, or depending on how many layers or how I do it, it will even go like almost a purple. Ah. When I do Layer a color over top of that. It will even go sometimes green. Um, I found it more interesting than if I were to use red or a blue pen.

Marco Timpano:  I see.

Steven Papadopoulos:  So it's just, uh, choice, I guess, just through that technique of using that pen.

Marco Timpano:  Now walk me through what the process is with the pen, because it's hard for me to describe it, but basically it looks like multiple straight lines of pen marking. Do you take a ruler? Is that what you do?

Steven Papadopoulos:  I use a ruler.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Steven Papadopoulos:  And there's a certain energy that I use with it. Um, it's just repeated, but I try to. There's. When I use the pen, it kind of sounds odd, but I do hear a noise with the pen.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Um, the back and forth motion. There has been videos of me using it, and you can hear it. And so for me, there's. There's a weight, um, in each line, so you can see within the work at times. Uh, when I do, there's. It's a continuous motion, and I. When it's sort of automatic at times. But then there's times where I make certain choices of, like, how thick I want each line, where I want thin. Um, very similar to, like, gradation of some sort of, like, even drawing with pencil or, um, using a gradation from black to white. So I will continuously work on that until I feel the pattern is sort of happening within the work. Right.

>> Tess Sharp: It.

Steven Papadopoulos:  I almost feel like there's a transition that happens and almost, um, kind of seeing like. Almost like a note of something.

Marco Timpano:  Like. Like a musical note or a note

Steven Papadopoulos:  as in note or just even like a. Within that contour of that line. Something that is more than just a repetition of same lines.

Marco Timpano:  Right. Okay, I see what you're saying. Because, you know, when I look at this piece in particular, the lines aren't spaced out equally. They have some distance and some lines are darker. And so it looks like you may have pressed harder on the pen as you draw. Drew it towards you or away from you.

Steven Papadopoulos:  I don't know exactly. Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  So there's definitely that feel of, like, motion in the art that I see. But I know art. I'm no art critic or no art expert, but there's certainly a vibrancy that comes out in your work. Do you finish the ink in a pen when you start your work? Like, have you ever exhausted a pen?

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yes, that does happen. Um, and I don't mind that at all, because what will happen, the reaction with that, uh, the color will actually start to change. So the black through the layers. There's areas that will be when the ink was more prominent and there, uh, would be a lot more vibrant. But then when it starts to fade that ink.

Marco Timpano:  Sure.

Steven Papadopoulos:  That ink will almost start to fade very fast within the work.

Marco Timpano:  I see.

Steven Papadopoulos:  So it creates a very interesting quality to the body of work.

Marco Timpano:  Wow.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Has certain sensitivity. That's really nice to the piece.

Marco Timpano:  Now, does it matter what pen you use? Is there a preferred pen that you like to use?

Steven Papadopoulos:  A lot of my pens are actually dollar store pens. I see. Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  How great would it be if Mont Blanc sponsored your art and said, here's our pens use, make art with our pens and we'll give you the money to have a studio and do all that?

Steven Papadopoulos:  It would be fantastic.

Marco Timpano:  Sure.

Steven Papadopoulos:  But I mean, really, it really depends on how good the pen is because,

Marco Timpano:  well, the Mont Blanc pen is supposedly one of the best in the world. Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  But some of them, if they bleed too much, the pen can get really frustrating. I've had pens just start bleeding and ink would pour out. Wow.

Marco Timpano:  Well, I'll. You know what? I'll put out this challenge to Montblanc if they want to sponsor you because their pens are like thousands of dollars.

Steven Papadopoulos:  I don't think I've ever used one.

Marco Timpano:  Yeah, well, yeah, I'm sure once you

Steven Papadopoulos:  use and it's very aggressive. Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  Well, listen, hey, listen. It's the best test for their pens to see if the Montblanc pen lives up to your. Now, this is your own unique art. Like no one else does this that I know of. Correct. You've developed a technique. I know a lot of artists develop techniques when they, when they work, but you've developed your own sort of technique here.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  Is that safe to say?

Steven Papadopoulos:  I think with the process, um, it started way back in ocad, um, when

Marco Timpano:  I was there, which stands for the

Steven Papadopoulos:  Ontario College of Art Design. I think it's OCAD U.

Marco Timpano:  Now, um, for our international listeners, that will be like, what's ocad?

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  Because we had my sister in law, Becca Barker, who teaches at nascat, which is the Nova Scotia.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Do you have anyone to nascat? Yeah.

Marco Timpano:  Oh, maybe he knows. I'll have to talk to him. Yeah. She did an episode on, um, rotoscoping. So if you listen to one of our past episodes, you can hear all about rotoscoping with Becca Barker and myself.

Steven Papadopoulos:  All right.

Marco Timpano:  But right now we're talking to Stephen Papadopoulos. And I'm going to hazard to say that if our listeners want to purchase your art, they can, they can do it online too.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Is that safe to say I am through, uh, Instagram if they want to direct message me. M for potentially commission or visit the studio would be lovely.

Marco Timpano:  Oh cool.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Um, but also I have some work on Saatchi Online. Um.

Marco Timpano:  Oh, that's awesome.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah, so there's work there that's also up for purchase as well.

Marco Timpano:  There you go.

Steven Papadopoulos:  You know, people are interested in having a look. You can look on my website or Saatchi Online and maybe we'll grab a

Marco Timpano:  couple of pictures and put it on her Instagram account as well so that they can see what we're talking about today. How long does a piece like that take? Uh, I know that's such a benign or like basic question that I'm asking, but it's something that you know, for the non artist who goes to a museum and whatnot and you look at a piece of work and you think how long did it take to make that? I have the opportunity to actually ask an artist how long did it take to make this piece in front of me? Well,

Steven Papadopoulos:  it really depends obviously with the range of the work and depending on what I. What for me it's more or less until I'm. I feel the painting is resolved, the emotion I get from it. I think Agnes Martin, uh, artist Agnes Martin was one of the thing that struck a chord was what she said when I listened to actually one of her podcasts.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Or someone shout out to you. I think it was from the Guggenheimer. Ah. Anyway, the Agnes Martin said along lines, so don't quote me on this but just said um, whenever you have that feeling, waking up in the morning and you're happy or and you don't know why. Right. You just. It's not a dream that you had. It's not you just happy. She's like, that's the true emotion of just that feeling that way. And she's like, that's kind of the emotion I look for in my art. So I guess in that same lines, when I'm creating a work I don't like I said I don't really have an agenda necessarily what it's going to look like the finished product. It's until I reach uh, a certain point within the work that I'm like it's done or I'm happy. Right. So it could take longer than some, um, than uh, I can have a

Marco Timpano:  very small pieces can be exactly the same in size, but one could take a short time.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Exactly.

Marco Timpano:  I see.

Steven Papadopoulos:  So sometimes I've actually intended even to go further, further. But I've looked at the piece. And I'm like, it's done.

Marco Timpano:  It's done. So.

Steven Papadopoulos:  And I'm happy with it.

Marco Timpano:  That's great that you can recognize when it's done.

Steven Papadopoulos:  It can be challenging.

Marco Timpano:  Sure.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Right. I've overworked a piece where it's just messed up. Yeah, it just went too far. I pushed it too far. Um, like this one. I'm kidding.

Marco Timpano:  Um, it's a beautiful piece that actually my computer's sitting on. And I said to Steve, and is it okay if my. And he's like, yeah, I sand on this piece.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Well, actually, speaking of work, when it's finished, this. This piece that. That your computer is on has been in this state for about two months.

Marco Timpano:  When will it be done?

Steven Papadopoulos:  I'm still thinking about, uh, when to start again.

Marco Timpano:  I guess it's an unfair question to ask an artist when. When will the piece be done or how long it takes? It takes as long as it takes.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Right, Exactly. I mean, there is sometimes a deadline, and you have to kind of work within that. But I try to do what I can within that time frame.

Marco Timpano:  What does this art say about you?

Steven Papadopoulos:  Um, that's a. That's actually a good question. I've never really thought. I. I think, like, every once in

Marco Timpano:  a while I hit on a good question.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah, no, that's actually really good. I never looked at it that way. I think I've always said, what does this art say about the art? Like, I looked at it that way.

Marco Timpano:  But maybe the fair question is, what would you like this art to say about you?

Steven Papadopoulos:  I guess with the certain. There's a certain craftsmanship that I really appreciate with the work, and I think that's kind of, you know, uh, sort of not lost today in the art scene, in the art world. But I really appreciate that, ah, element of craft. I mean, you know, you can look at this work and, you know, not see it right away in terms of the detail and everything, but there. There's a love for the. What I do, and there's an appreciation for what I do, and I think. And even the color, um, the vibrancy of the color, the energy of the color, um, that I really am enthusiastic about when I create this work. Like, I just want to see what it looks like, and I. I think I kind of want to share that. You know, um, it's just that visual component that I like and that sort of. I want people to have that nice gaze towards the work.

Marco Timpano:  Ah, nice

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Steven Papadopoulos:  They don't. They can interpret it however they want. I'm not trying to, um, there's an open narrative to the sense of it. I don't want them to look at the work and be like, this is what it means. They don't have to read into it so much. It's just this visual kind of response to it, um, that I like and to look and just to be with a connection, maybe. However they're connected to the work in that sense that I find that that's what I want to give because that's how I enjoy it when I look at the work and I'm making it, I. I stare at it.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Look at it continuously, and I enjoy it. I touch the canvas. I, you know, smooth it out. Right. Even hand polish them.

Marco Timpano:  Your hands, Your hands are all over the piece.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah. Uh, sometimes I wish, like, not even to be able to sometimes necessarily frame them. Right. I've said to other artists, friends of mine, peers and whatever, like, I almost wish I can keep it on the table and show it so they can pick it up and touch the work and lift it up and. But of course, that can be, you know, a gallery would not enjoy that. But I mean, that's why some of the works I hung on grommets. I thought. I love the, uh, idea of, like, almost like flag. Like, even, you know, like old science anatomy posters.

Marco Timpano:  Sure.

Steven Papadopoulos:  You know, that you would see in a classroom, but just that kind of m. Seeing the materiality of the work. So it goes beyond just making the composition. It's all about the actual piece itself. Uh, whether they're on wood, how smooth, how the quality of the frame. It can go from that. So there's that craftsmanship that I want also to be part of the work. So it's the piece as a whole that I'm. It's the, I guess, sort of,

Marco Timpano:  uh,

Steven Papadopoulos:  saying of the painting is the object.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  I'm not, you know, um, you know, artists have said in a lot of abstract artists, like Malevich and all them, it's like, we don't paint objects. The painting is the object.

Marco Timpano:  I see.

Steven Papadopoulos:  And that's how I look at the body of work. So very similar to someone that's making an abstract sculpture. But instead I do painting. So that's how I kind of respond to the work. So whatever the dimension of the work is, that's how I work within that frame. Um, whether the painting will continue off to the sides or not, or that final product is. That's the piece that makes sense.

Marco Timpano:  Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Do you name your pieces? Is my next question.

Steven Papadopoulos:  At times I do. It's kind of funny how the names come out. Uh, the names develop based on. A lot of times they don't. Like, I've called them Composition number one, too. If it's based on the same body of work, sometimes it's based on the action. Uh, some pieces of, like. I've titled them Transition because they, you know, one of the works was in a show based on the idea of transition and what that word meant to the artist. So when I made that work specifically for that show, I kind of. The next body of work fit along that line. So I called them all Transition Number one. And there's been Shift number one, Shift number Two. But sometimes a name will come from the work based on how I describe it. So there's been ones, you know, that. You know, the one with the orange square, and that's that piece there. But I kind of. I changed the name through it, but it was still the orange square. But I titled it because it's not actual a full square. I see. So it's orange square, I think, 43.5 by 45.3, because that's the actual size.

Marco Timpano:  I see. So.

Steven Papadopoulos:  But that's how I describe it to people. I'm like, oh, I'm still working on the orange square. So that would still exist in the title.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  So that's generally how I come up with it. Sometimes I do, if it strikes me. And I've named one Blue Moon because of. One of the pieces was, uh, actually an orange moon, but the composition was mostly blue. I see. Everything was blue values, blue tones to it. And so that's where I was, like, kind of a cheeky title to it, but fun. And, you know, everybody understood. But Blue Moon. Right. So, I mean, it's not a major concern.

Marco Timpano:  I'd love to see your interpretation of insomnia in a painting. Speaking of color, you mhm. Use these colors. And what struck me with a lot of your pieces is the use of pink. We were talking about that before. It was. It's fascinating because you don't see pink in a lot of art as a predominant color. At least I don't. It's not the first thing that comes to me.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Well, I think.

Marco Timpano:  And these greens too, like you use these bright, bold colors.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Well, a lot of the colors that I choose are straight from the tube.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Right.

Marco Timpano:  So you're not mixing them?

Steven Papadopoulos:  Not, not about blending and mixing. I like the um.

Marco Timpano:  That's a choice you're making.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Right. It's a choice. When I see the color that I like and I'll pick. Sometimes I'll just pick three colors that I'll want to work with.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Steven Papadopoulos:  And it's at a random or in a sense sometimes there's been like. Because there's been those pigments in my studio that I need to kind of use up or get rid of. So I'll see what happens to them by putting them together. And there's an interesting. That uh, like I guess a color code that will happen that you don't normally see. You know, people are so used to the basic colors of the color wheel or you know, red and green together, whatnot, or. And that's. It's more complex than that in a sense, like if you want to get really in depth with it. But I think for me it's more about just kind of just the curiosity of these two colors being next to each other, which normal won't see. Uh, with brown and pink, for example, I've done a piece and over there where it's brown and pink, I thought it was kind of neat to kind of put those colors. Interesting to kind of put them and how they worked.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  It's just uh, for me I find those are the kind of playful.

Marco Timpano:  Mhm.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Things that I really enjoy. Well, to have that. The ability to do as an artist, that's what I enjoy. It's like practicing all the time. Right, right. And finding those little fun things that I can try out. I don't want it to be so straightforward.

Marco Timpano:  I see.

Steven Papadopoulos:  In my approach.

Marco Timpano:  Yeah. I'm curious because for example, the piece that you call orange square to me does not look like an orange square.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Right.

Marco Timpano:  It looks like a brown square. It uh, it actually reminds me of a shroud of some sort. Like a faded old shroud. That's what the first thing that struck me about that particular piece. So it's, it's fascinating. Like I Find it curious and fascinating how there is the use of bold colors in your artwork. Mhm. And how they came about and the fact that you use them straight from the tube and you don't mix because you want this effect.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Yeah. And it's feeling. Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes my process is in going back to mixing. It kind of mixes within its layers. The uh, color will tend to change, uh, lighten, darken based on the layers. And then it will also optically mix next to the color that it's with. So that's another thing. You know, um, there's a vibration that will happen. If you put like certain greens next to a red, it'll start to vibrate. Or blue next to a red, it will start to vibrate. So there creates that. So there's like going into. It's very complex with color theory and it will, you know. But I think that's one of those things that I don't. For me, I'm. I rather see those elements happening than mixing paint physically together to make a color.

Marco Timpano:  Wow.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Right.

Marco Timpano:  What has surprised you the most about this technique of art that you've developed?

Steven Papadopoulos:  For me, it, what, it's this, I guess a bit of it is this sort of alchemy towards the work. What happens, uh, over time sometimes or through this process. And how, I guess for me, like when I, you know, originally started as a figure of a figurative, uh, artist, it was so straightforward.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  And how I worked, you know, worked with oil paint, you know, either I had a model photograph or, you know, it was representational. It was. The end result would be that for this work that I do, I. It's this not knowing. Right. That I find very fascinating with. And this process that happens, I almost don't know. And I'm kind of insecure. Like, am I going to screw this up? Right. Like, is something bad going to happen? Right. And then it. And at times it has, but I continue to work or work with it, or I've discarded it for a while and I've gone back to it. So there's something about this body of work that it's uh, it's kind of, uh, intimidating or scary at times, but it's encouraging to keep going. And then when you, you kept going at it, you see the end result and you're like, I'm so glad I almost discarded that. Right, right. Or almost got rid of it. Because that's why sometimes when you can be insecure when you create artwork, it's scary. It's like, you know, and then you have to show it. It's like walking into room naked with a bunch of people. Right. So I think that's where, you know, it can be kind of daunting in that sense. And. And that's why with this process, it. I just kind of like that feeling of not knowing what's going to totally happen to it and seeing something come out of that.

Marco Timpano:  That's pretty cool. Is it addictive? Is because it looks like the pen, like just doing the. Is it Zen? Is it addictive? Is it, uh.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Well, for me, at times it can be because, uh, you know, I'll have my headphones on.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Steven Papadopoulos:  And I'll be listening to, like, jazz music or, um, even some, you know, like, acid jazzy music. And I'll just like. And I'll be just in that zone and I'll keep working. But then there's times where it's just become really difficult because, like, I almost get carpal tunnel from repetitive movement and, like, numb in my hands. But it's. There is a definitely meditative quality. I think by doing that and then stepping back and looking at the work, there's that other quality of meditative, and then you're really looking at the lines. Because sometimes I get so immersed in it and I'm not even really paying attention to what I'm doing. And then I'll step away and I'm like, oh. And then I'll just stare at it for a while. And that has happened in. When I've shown, like, shown that my work and people have just stared at it and they walk back and they walk forward and they walk back and it draws them in. And that's kind of the same reaction I have to my own work. So it's nice to see that.

Marco Timpano:  When you see someone doing that, standing back and moving closer, how does that make you feel as an artist?

Steven Papadopoulos:  It's kind of. It's nice and. Absolutely. I like people engaging with the work. I mean, that's the kind of the, um. I think why I do what I do is that engagement. Right. With. With art. That's the beauty of it. That's the fun part of it. Right. It's to be able to have, like, it. Be even. You know, some. Some art can be a form of just entertainment.

Marco Timpano:  Sure.

Steven Papadopoulos:  Uh, some art can be just more a form of just, like, being able to stare at, like, something like you would like a landscape.

Marco Timpano:  Right.

Steven Papadopoulos:  You know, or, uh, looking at the sunset. Right. It can be that kind of poetic. But I think, you know, it's just whatever it may be for someone. But that's the whole point. I think a lot of the reasoning for some of the visual arts, not all art, some could, um, be an educational process and what it might be in contemporary art. But I think, you know, for what I do, I think, you know, um, is that engagement with it and to kind of see something that you might have not recognized before or feel something that you might not have felt before or, you know, there could be a number of things.

Marco Timpano:  Well, speaking of engaging, Steven, I want to thank you for making this particular episode very engaging.

Steven Papadopoulos:  You're welcome.

Marco Timpano:  As we come to the end, if you'd like to see Stephen Papadopoulos work, you can go to. L O S Art and we'll have it in our show notes and take a look at his work. Uh, Stephen, I want to thank you for inviting me to your studio. This is the first time. No, this is the second time we've recorded a podcast in the studio. So thank you for that.

Steven Papadopoulos:  You're welcome. Thank you.

Marco Timpano:  As always. The Insomnia Project is produced by Drum Cast Productions. This particular episode was sponsored by barkbox. Go to barkbox box.com the Insomnia Project. And until next time,