Sand, Volcanic Surfing & Aristotle’s Poetics | Drift Off with Cozy, Meandering Talk

Looking for a sleep podcast to fall asleep fast, reduce anxiety, and quiet an overactive mind? This calming episode of The Insomnia Project is designed for insomnia relief, stress reduction, and gentle nighttime unwinding through slow, soothing conversation.
Marco Timpano welcomes guest Christian Davies for a relaxed discussion that moves from the simple textures of sand to the adventurous idea of volcanic surfing, and even into a thoughtful exploration of Poetics by Aristotle. This low-stimulation, easygoing episode blends curiosity and calm, making it perfect for bedtime listening.
With soft-spoken storytelling and a gently meandering pace, the conversation flows across everyday observations and big ideas alike, helping to ease racing thoughts and promote relaxation. The mix of tactile, imaginative, and reflective topics creates a peaceful atmosphere ideal for sleep, stress relief, or quiet background listening.
Whether you’re searching for a sleep podcast for insomnia, calming background noise while you work, or a gentle way to unwind at the end of the day, The Insomnia Project offers a comforting, reliable escape.

​Sand, Volcanic Surfing & Aristotle's Poetics
(Original airdate: Aug 3, 2016)

Marco:  Welcome to the Insomnia Project. Sit back, relax and listen as we have a conversation about, well, the mundane, the ordinary, the relaxing. One thing we can promise you is that our conversation will be probably less than fascinating so that you can feel free to just drift off. Thank you for joining us. We hope that you will listen and sleep. That's right. That you will be out by the time this podcast ends. If not, we want to thank you for listening to the whole podcast. I'm your host, Marco Timpano. You can follow us on Twitter listenandsleep as well. We invite you to rate us on itunes. Tell us what you think, give us a high rating. It will help us to keep the Insomnia Project on. I have the distinct pleasure of having a friend, Christian Davies, on the show today. Welcome, Christian.

>> Speaker E: Hey, thank you for having me.


Christian: What's your preferred sand to walk on

Marco:  Now, Christian, we were just walking on the beach and with the sand between our toes. We're here at my cottage on Woodland Beach. What did you think of the sand?

>> Speaker E: Uh, parts of it were surprisingly black. I saw at Woodland Beach. Um, cold. Cold, wet. Felt good between the toes.

Marco:  What's your preferred sand to walk on? Do you prefer like, you know, in some parts of Europe they have like pebbles that are kind of soft and smooth or do you prefer a really fine sort of powdery sand?

>> Speaker E: You know, it's. It's, uh. I would, I would eliminate pebbles quickly. Fair. I think fine and powdery. The more it feels like I'm walking on, uh, a. On feathers, the better.

Marco:  I see.

>> Speaker E: Uh, yeah, if it sort of has. That's a good question. As. You don't want it too hot.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: Obviously, yeah. You don't want it too rocky.

Marco:  I never thought of the temperature of the sand, but you're right. Like when I've been to, you know, the Dominican or whatnot, you're kind of like running to the water from your towel because the hand sand is so, so hot.

>> Speaker E: Right. It's so true. Yeah. And it's almost, uh. Yeah. There's a real strategy to getting from one point to the other when the sand is that hot.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: Um, so not hot.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: Not pebbly.

Marco:  Yeah.

>> Speaker E: Which I guess leaves me with soft and cool.

Marco:  Soft and cool sand. Alright.

>> Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah.


Barbecues often use volcanic rock in barbecues

Marco:  Have you ever been on volcanic rock or. Volcanic.

>> Speaker E: I have. I've actually gone, um, uh, surfing down volcanic rock.

Marco:  Oh. I didn't know you surfed in Nicaragua.

>> Speaker E: I don't.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: You don't. For this one, you don't have to. It's more like sledding.

Marco:  Oh, so you. You were surfing on the. On the.

>> Speaker E: They call it volcano surfing, but it's really kind of sledding. And what you do as you go with a big group up to the top of a young volcano. So young volcanoes are mostly loose rock, loose black rock, which I didn't know.

Marco:  Um, and this would be like magma. Right. So it would be the lava that.

>> Speaker E: That, I guess, is. It kind of sounds smart enough to be true.

Marco:  Is it porous and black?

>> Speaker E: It's black.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: It's porous. It's porous enough. Yeah. It's not, uh, too dense.

Marco:  Yeah. Because they'll often use volcanic rock in barbecues. Gas barbecues. That's the rock that. Because it heats up and it's porous, really. I don't know if that's why they use volcanic rock. I'm sure it's because it. It can withstand really high temperatures. But oftentimes when you have a, um, gas fireplace, it has volcanic rock in it.

>> Speaker E: And a gas fireplace, like just barbecue.

Marco:  I'm sorry. Barbecue, not fireplace. I don't know why I got those two computers. But have you ever seen the rocks that are in a barbecue? Uh, in a propane barbecue?

>> Speaker E: Uh, in a propane barbecue. I don't think I have what's actually inside the tank.

Marco:  No, on the barbecue where the grill is.

Marco:  Maybe between the grill.

Marco:  Between the grill and the bottom of the barbecue, oftentimes you'll find rocks. They're black, porous rocks, and they're volcanic rocks.

>> Speaker E: And do you have to change the rocks out or.

Marco:  I think after a few years you do, because they get full of meat drippings and they can get a little bit ashy. Yeah, I guess.

>> Speaker E: Okay.


Volcanic rock surfing involves going down a volcano on a sled

Marco:  But anyways, back to this. Volcanic rock surfing. And you say Nicaragua.

>> Speaker E: Nicaragua, yeah. Uh, yeah. So you basically go up with a group to the top of this new volcano with the porous rock.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: And they give you a jumpsuit and big goggles because there's a lot of dust comes up off the rock. And you each have your own sled, for lack of a better term.

Marco:  Does, um, it look like a toboggan or does it look like something else?

>> Speaker E: It's close to a toboggan.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: Yeah, it's close. And, um, you sort of get up there and you're confident on the way up because you think, well, this looks pretty gradual, this, uh, decline, that you're gonna be going down on this sled. Sure. And then you get to the top and you sort of get to the other side of the volcano where you're actually gonna be going down on the side sled.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: And, uh, it's pretty steep. Oh, pretty steep.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: So actually, you know, speaking of house people, was the year we were there, which I think was 2008 or 9, um, they had just had the world's fastest cyclist had broken the land speed cycling record by going down this thing on a bicycle.

Marco:  Oh, wow.

>> Speaker E: Yeah. Uh, and people, some people have been, like, killed or terribly injured doing it on bikes. So we're doing this on a sled.

Marco:  Right. And do you know this prior to doing it?

>> Speaker E: They sort of tell you on the way up, which is an interesting way to get you in the mindset to go down this thing.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: So anyway, so you get up there with a sled, and it's sort of what you would expect. One person goes, the next person goes. You know, the next person goes. And mostly, um, for me, I'm just hoping to do it as well. At least as well as my girlfriend and her friends.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: That was sort of the pressure.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: So they went down. And the idea is you have your legs propped up so your feet are off the ground. Right. You're completely on the sled.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: And you can use your feet as brakes as long as you don't get going too fast. So you see a lot of people sort of, you know, um, pulling back, hermit crabbing kind of down the, uh, down the mountain because they don't want to go too fast because it's slick rock.

Marco:  Wow.

>> Speaker E: And you're gonna go fast.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: And so I get going and, uh, I'm going, I'm going, but not too fast. Putting my feet out. Not too fast. I'm thinking I'm like, kind of okay looking at least, but secretly terrified. And then I just hit this patch about a halfway down the mountain and just go tumbling. No, but that happened to a lot of people.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: But I was definitely one that bit it the worst.

Marco:  Oh, wow.

>> Speaker E: One of the ones that. That bit it the worst. And, uh, so, you know, you tumble.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: You pop up at the bottom of the thing. You're not hurt because it's soft rock.

Marco:  Right. And the rocks are light.

>> Speaker E: Yeah.

Marco:  Volcanic rock is very light.

>> Speaker E: Right. And you have this big jumpsuit on, sort of like, like a lumberjack. Like, you know, it's dense.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: So you're protected. You have a helmet and goggles and whatnot, but just covered in dirt. So, um. Yeah. And then you're at the bottom. And you sort of tell other people. Yeah, I want volcanoes. But secretly, you know, in your heart, you're an abject failure for having, you know, somersaulted halfway down.

Marco:  Fair enough. But what a great story. Now, let me ask you this. Did your girlfriend make it all the way down?

>> Speaker E: Without her, I'm pretty sure she did. I'm sure she did. So that teaches you something, right?

Marco:  Sure, yeah.

>> Speaker E: Fool's errand to try to outdo our, um, loved ones.

Marco:  There you go. See? You know, it's funny. We're talking about sand and rocks and whatnot and, you know, the word arena, I believe, comes from the Greek word arena, which is sand, which means sand. I did not know that, because arenas back in the day were all sandy, uh, where the gladiators would fight and whatnot.


The arena thing is interesting. Have you ever been to an old sort of arena

Which brings me to something that someone told me about you that you know, or you're a fan of Aristotle's Poetics.

>> Speaker E: Yeah, that's true.

Marco:  What exactly is that? I was told. I'm like, oh, I've got to ask him about this Christian, about Aristotle's Poetics.

>> Speaker E: That's a good question. First, and I would love to talk about it. The arena thing is interesting. I'm interested. They named the building after what the ground looked like.

Marco:  Yeah.

>> Speaker E: That's interesting to me.

Marco:  Well, it's funny, once again, I'm pretty certain that's what it means because I have a friend whose name is Jenny Arena.

>> Speaker E: Ah.

Marco:  And she told me that that's what it means. So.

>> Speaker E: Well, it's. I mean, it kind of makes sense if you think about it. Right?

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: Because if you think of. What does a theater need? Right. Or performance space? Um, it certainly needs a stage. Not to soundfalutin about it.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: No, whatever. So maybe the original, um, arenas just had. Were just focused on the stage, and they said, we're gonna call it sand because that's where the stage is.

Marco:  Have you ever been to, like, an old sort of arena?

>> Speaker E: The Colosseum in Rome? Yeah. I feel like some other ones. My mind's eye are popping up.

Marco:  Um, I think once you've been to the Colosseum, you're pretty, like.

>> Speaker E: Yeah.

Marco:  It's funny. The Coliseum. I didn't think it would strike me the way it did. What I loved most about it is that it's so close to the road where Roman traffic is, like. It's right there on the edge of the road, and you see cars zooming by. And that's what affected me the most

>> Speaker E: when I saw it. It's an interesting juxtaposition between the modern cars and the, uh, giant old arena that's standing right there because, you know, somebody's sort of selling discount cell phones, you know, 20 yards from the entrance to the Coliseum or something. It's pretty crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's definitely a vibe of hustle around it there.


Aristotle wrote about what makes epic poetry and drama work

Marco:  So now tell me about Aristotle's Poetics, because I need to know exactly what this is. And I'm sure some of our listeners are like on the edge of their bed wondering.

>> Speaker E: Yeah, just in case they're not out yet. This is a good topic to cover. I mean, a lot of people know about Aristotle's poetry, Poetics, because you sort of get force fed it sometimes in school. But what it is, Basically, it's this 60 or 70 page document that Aristotle wrote about what makes epic poetry, which we think of as literature today, novels, whatever, prose, um, what makes epic poetry and drama, which he called tragedy, work. Well, so the way we could think of tragedy today would be film, tv, theater, and a lot of really well known writers. Um, David Mamet, Aaron Sorkin, to name a couple. Um, Alex Dinaloris, who was a co writer on Birdman and had, uh, a great play called Still Life that ran in New York a couple years ago. Uh, they've all sort of said everything you need to know about story structure was covered in this 60 or 70 page document by Aristotle, uh, a couple thousand years ago. And as an aspiring writer, I always thought, well, that seems kind of intimidating because you would pick it up and the first sentence would say something about the nature of epic poetry is to have, um, art imitating life, something like that. I don't know if that's the first sentence, but that's sort of the first couple chapters are about that. And you think to yourself, well, how the heck do I take that and apply it to this sitcom I'm trying to write or this, you know, modern drama about a family in 2016 that I'm trying to write. What does it mean? And so you sort of have to work. I had to work, uh, to understand what it meant. And that mostly meant using other resources. So all these great writers quoted this book a lot. And I became determined I'm going to understand what they're talking about. Cool, right? So I dove in and it's dry as a bone.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: This document.

Marco:  So that would stop me, right, right off the bat. Okay.

>> Speaker E: So I had to really go through sentence by sentence.

Marco:  And was it translated from ancient Greek into English?

>> Speaker E: Yeah. And I had one of um, the writer Alex Dinaloris, fortunately gave me a lead to get a certain translation which was by a guy named Sh. Butcher.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: I think it's like a 40 or 50 year old translation, but he does a good job translating it and then he has a bunch of essays in the back of the book that help explain it.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: But so I went sentence by sentence through it, and two of the biggest takeaways from it that I think everybody would understand and sort of see value in right away is that Aristotle talked about peripatea and anagnaresis, which are two Greek words that obviously we don't use in English speaking countries. But peripatea means reversal of fortune.

Marco:  Oh, cool.

>> Speaker E: And anagnoresis means moment of realization. So what. How those apply is that if you, if you look at Sophocles plays that most of us had to read in school, Oedipus, the Oedipus cycle being a prominent one. And you know, Oedipus, um, the king, or Oedipus Rex as it's called. I think it's the king in the west and Oedipus Rex, uh, in Europe, or at least in Greece, anyway. We all know the story, and if we don't, it's about a king. And it opens right away in the action. King comes out onto the. The patio of the palace, essentially, right? And the whole town is gathered, and the town, from the first time we see them, ravaged by plague, okay. People are dying, their crops aren't growing. All this stuff is happening, right? So Oedipus the king comes out and says something along the lines of, we need to figure out how to solve this problem. You're dying, I love you, you're my people.

Marco:  Right?

>> Speaker E: And he's a very generous, likable figure. You can tell he wants to help his people. And so what happens throughout the course of the, uh, very short, still exciting to read and see play, is that Oedipus finds out. The first thing, he finds out this plague has been caused because the gods are upset. What are the gods? Okay, so that's new information. What are the gods upset about? Why have they. They created this plague upon Thebes, which is where they live, and they find out this would be a peripatea, uh, reversal of fortune. They find out the plague has been set because the gods are angry that somebody in Thebes has murdered their own father and slept with their own mother.

Marco:  Oh, I see.

>> Speaker E: Right, right. So now we know what we have to find out to get rid of this plague.

Marco:  This is Also where we get the concept of, uh, I think it's the Oedipus complex. People sleeping with their mother, right?

>> Speaker E: Exactly. Sleeping with their mother. Exactly. Correct.

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>> Speaker E: And so what you find out throughout the rest of the story is there's one reversal of fortune or peripate after the other, right?


So we have our hero who wants to solve the plague in Thebes

So we have our hero who wants to solve the plague in Thebes. He's the king, he wants to solve the plague. So we know, according to Aristotle's Poetics, he goes into a little bit of detail on this. We need to have that character reach his or her goal, the hero reach his or her Goal, which in this case would be to rid the city of the plague in a surprisingly inevitable way. So he starts out thinking, I'm the king. I'm gonna solve this plague by finding the person. Once he finds out that somebody slept with their mother and killed her father, I'm gonna find this person.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: So he starts to get a little hostile when nobody's fessing up to this crime.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: And so, new pieces of information. I think he sends away the, um, fortune teller, uh, who was responsible for giving them information, you know? Um, so anyway, so he finds out that this person killed her father and son of his mother, and immediately he rules himself out. We start to get backstory on Oedipus.

Marco:  Okay.

>> Speaker E: And the backstory is that, uh. And I'll get this a little bit wrong somewhere, but basically, his. He. He was from a different town, and I can't exactly remember the details, but he. Basically, his father didn't kill his father, and he certainly didn't sleep with his mother because he's married to the current queen. Right, Right. And so then you find out, um, his father, you know, this. This man that was father died in a sketchy part of the trail between the two cities. And it starts to line up that. Wait a second. When Oedipus was younger, he happened to kill a man in that exact same spot. So that's a reversal of fortune.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: Wait a second. This is keeping our interest. Right. Like, wait, this story's changing. This thing is making me feel something. And then you find out later that, um, the queen gave away a baby when she was younger.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: Right. And now you start to realize that Oedipus was the baby that they gave away years ago, and he didn't know he was the baby.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: So he came back, killed his father on the way to Thebes because they got in a scuffle.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: Married the queen, who is his mother, slept with her, had children with her. She's behind him on the balcony for most of the play.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: So you have. So that would be an anagnoris, which is the moment of realization. Right. Can also be and should also be a peripetia, a reversal of fortune.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: But a peripatea doesn't necessarily need to be an agnoresis.

Marco:  I see.

>> Speaker E: So peripatia could be. We walk into a room, you pull a gun. Would be a cliche. Sure. Oh, I thought we were going to talk about what to get for breakfast, and now you pulled a gun on me.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: But I haven't real. I haven't Understood or realized something, like from my back pat my history. Right. If you pull the gun and say, it's me, I'm your brother, or, Luke, I am your father, that's a moment of realization that goes back two movies. That's the Magnaresis that took two movies.

Marco:  Right, Right.

>> Speaker E: So when everybody goes, oh, my God, that's what it is. He's his father.

Marco:  Right.


There are several turning points in the classic Chinese film Chinatown

>> Speaker E: So that started thousands of years old. Oedipus Rex.

Marco:  Wow.

>> Speaker E: Oh, my God. Uh, you know. No, it's him. He killed his father, and he slept with his mother and his wife, who he loves as a Doors. As a wife throughout the whole play. Finds out she's his mother.

Marco:  Right. Queen, you are my mother.

>> Speaker E: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. It's almost like got pulled straight out of it. She goes back inside the palace and hangs herself while he's talking. In the course of this play, he goes back into the palace, finds his wife hanging in the bedroom. His mother, who's also his mother, pulls a golden brooch off of her dress of her dead body as she hangs in their bedroom.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: And rips his eyes out with her brooch.

Marco:  Wow.

>> Speaker E: Comes back out onto the patio and, like, tries to plead forgiveness from Thebes for having brought this plague on their house. And eventually is escorted out of the city as this incredibly sympathetic figure.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: So, Luke, I am your father. Queen, you are my mother. Right. That's the connection.

Marco:  I say that when I play chess a lot.

>> Speaker E: You have to, you know, um, so those are really. So those are in Aristotle's Poetics. And if you start to look at how good film and theater works and television now, turning points are really simple. Right. It's something new that gets included in the story that knocks the hero's journey off course. Right. And then the moment of realization are those gasp moments. Those.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: You know, famous ones in Chinatown, which. And people talk about Chinatown being a great script all the time. And there's. First of all, there's a couple great ones in that script. One would be, um, when. And, um, spoiler alerts, obviously, but one would be when.

Marco:  So if you haven't watched Chinatown and you're wanting to watch it without being spoiled of a plot point, now would be the time to pull the earphones out of your ear and just hang out for about two minutes before you put them back in.

>> Speaker E: Correct. Um, and so in Chinatown, there's a couple famous, smaller Peripatia. Right. Reversals of fortune. The first one is for the first maybe 15 or 20 minutes of that movie, we're following Jack Nicholson as a private investigator, and he's, he's investigating a, uh, crime for a woman named Ellen Mulray, who thinks her husband is cheating on her. And so we think a straightforward private detective movie.

Marco:  Sure. Right.

>> Speaker E: Jack Nicholson, great to look at, you know, beautifully shot all the time, this stuff. And then all of a sudden this woman shows up and he comes to his office one afternoon and there's a woman sitting there and she goes, you're investigating, you know, um, Evelyn. It's Eleanor. Evelyn. Anyway, Mulray's husband. But I am Evelyn Mulray or whatever it is, right? So now I go, he's not even. He's been investigating a crime for the wrong woman. And then the famous one that comes towards the climax of the movie is

Marco:  so really, take your headphones out if you haven't at this point correct this,

>> Speaker E: this female character that he's been helping along the whole time and doing his investigation for, we finally realize what she's trying to hide. And ironically enough, it's similar to Oedipus Rex and Star Wars. So you don't understand. He's my, um, he's my, uh, my, uh, husband and my father again, butchering the exact line. Basically, you see that this woman has been sexually assaulted and has been having to cover it up for all these years. Oh, wow. So everybody goes, um, that makes everything else before it makes sense.

Marco:  Right?

>> Speaker E: Um, so, yeah, so then it's all in this little 60 page pamphlet. And I think writers have referenced it so much just mainly for those two concepts.

Marco:  Now, as a writer, has reading Aristotle's poetic made you a better writer?

>> Speaker E: Uh, it's made me enjoy the process of writing a lot more because I feel like I know what I'm aiming at.

Marco:  I see.

>> Speaker E: You know, it's always subjective whether something resonates with some people or not. But I used to drive myself crazy, uh, because I wasn't sure what I was aiming for as a writer. It would be like a funny or moving sentence or scene, and I wouldn't know how to flesh that out into a fuller story with bigger payoffs and developed characters. And now at least I know I'm aiming for that. It's still hard because, you know, a couple principles doesn't mean it's easy to sit down and do it fair.

Marco:  Um, but at least you're not walking aimless or writing or typing on your keyboard aimlessly. You have direction in, in some shape or form.

>> Speaker E: Yeah, there's.

Marco:  That makes sense.

Marco:  There's a target.

>> Speaker E: Thank you. There's a Target. Yeah. And I appreciate that. And I also makes me a better fan because now when I see those moments in something or read them in something, I appreciate them.


Leonard Cohen: Sometimes people think voice is enough in literature

Marco:  But let me ask you this. Do you see them coming now that you know the concepts? Thanks to Aristotle's like, can you. Is it kind of like, oh, I know what's going to happen. A will equal B plus C or C equals A minus B as you're watching, say, a movie or reading a story?

>> Speaker E: You know, that's a really good question. And I would say, um, fortunately, probably I'm such a big fan of movies, books, TV and theater that I still get really super in the moment and lost in what's happening.

Marco:  Oh, that's awesome.

>> Speaker E: And they sneak up on me still. Uh, which is great. In hindsight, I can look back as far as seeing them coming occasionally, but I have to be consciously putting effort towards looking for them.

Marco:  Sure.

>> Speaker E: If that makes sense. If I'm just a passive viewer or an active viewer, uh, they still sneak up on me. But, yeah, if I consciously am trying to figure something out, um, and even if I'm hitting the pause button or something and I have time to think about it.

Marco:  Let me ask you this. Then. When you see a bad piece of writing or bad screenplay or bad movie, will you say what they were missing was one of the principles from Aristotle that would have made the movie better?

>> Speaker E: Definitely. The turns, the turns, the turning moments.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: Yeah. I think a lot of things don't have. Nothing happens.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: And I think people mistake. Um, especially in literature. Their voice can be prominent and voice can be interesting enough. You know, we read a great piece of literature like James Joyce or Richard Ford or Annie Proulx or somebody like that.

Marco:  Even the guy who wrote 100 million little pieces or A Million Little Pieces, I forget his name. James Fry. There was so much controversy because he had said it was a memoir.

>> Speaker E: Right.

Marco:  But the book itself, I don't read. It was a fantastic read because it was his voice.

>> Speaker E: Yeah.

Marco:  Regardless of whether it was fiction or non. He could have just said, well, here's my book. And I think it would have sold.

>> Speaker E: Yeah, cool.

Marco:  Um, cover, too, of a hand covered in little.

>> Speaker E: Little.

Marco:  Little, I want to say, like little dots of, I, uh, don't know, sugar or whatnot. But. Yeah.

>> Speaker E: But anyways, I mean, he should. He should still write, that guy. I hope he's writing under a pen name somewhere.

Marco:  You know, he actually owns a publishing house and he publishes a lot of books that are made into movies, including the one I don't The Divergent series is one of his books, but those kind of books anyways.

>> Speaker E: Right, Right.

Marco:  He doesn't need our plug. But you were saying. Sorry.

>> Speaker E: Um, I didn't even know he was still out there. So that's, you know, good on him.

Marco:  Yeah. Hey, listen, once Oprah yells at you, there's always a way to come back, Right?

>> Speaker E: No press is bad press. Right. Be nice to have Oprah yell at me. Um, see, what were we saying? We were saying, uh. Oh, bad writing. Yeah. So I think, you know, voice and literature and things like that, sometimes people think voice is enough.

Marco:  Right.

>> Speaker E: Um, and I think if somebody is a voice writer, right, Like a Richard Ford, like a James Joyce, like a Nanny Proulx, like a Dennis Johnson, whatever.

Marco:  Dr. Seuss.

>> Speaker E: Exactly. Your voice. Exactly. Uh, you have to be so good right. At voice that it's interesting enough for us and moving and engaging enough for us to go along on the ride with you. It has to be as good as music. It has to be, sentence by sentence, as interesting as a great song.

Marco:  There you go.

>> Speaker E: You know what I mean? Because songs don't have to have a narrative, right? So great literature sometimes doesn't have to have a narrative. Um, I don't ever see it work well in film, TV or theater.

Marco:  Sure. I'll tell you who works it well. Both a songwriter and a writer and a poet. One of my favorites is Leonard Cohen.

>> Speaker E: Sure. My dad's favorite, too.


Christian Davies: There's so much more to talk about on Insomnia Project

Marco:  Um, well, I'll tell you one thing we need more of, and that's your voice. We've come to the end of this episode, but there's so much. Yeah, there's so much more that you and I can talk about. So I'll have you on the Insomnia Project for a future show where we can pick up this topic and talk more about writing. Our listeners can follow you on Twitter chuckcrash Davies. And you'll see that Chuck.

>> Speaker E: It's actually Chuck Crash Davis without the

Marco:  E. Oh, I know.

>> Speaker E: It's funny.

Marco:  Your name is with the E, right?

>> Speaker E: Davies name is with the E. But your Twitter. My friends call me Davis, which is a weird, confusing.

Marco:  You know, listen, sometimes in life, things are confusing. Just ask Aristotle. Yeah, well, uh, Christian Davies, Davis, whatever you want to be called. I want to thank you once again for being on, uh, the Insomnia Project. We'll have you on a future show because this was far too much fun and fascinating. You're listening to the Insomnia Project, as always, produced by Drumcast Productions, and this episode was recorded steps away from the beach here on Georgian Bay.