From Podcast Dreams to Travel Schemes: A Chat with Amanda Cupido | Calm Background Listening

In From Podcast Dreams to Travel Schemes: A Chat with Amanda Cupido, Marco and Amanda welcome fellow podcaster and author Amanda Cupido for a gently flowing conversation about creativity, tech, and travel. They reflect on how her book Let's Talk Podcasting: The Essential Guide to Doing It Right helped shape the early days of The Insomnia Project, offering guidance and encouragement along the way. The discussion remains relaxed and accessible, touching on favourite tools, podcasting insights, and Amanda’s work on How to Fall Asleep Fast and The Forefront: Ideas for Cities.
The conversation then drifts toward travel, with soft reflections on destinations like Malta and Egypt, sparking a gentle sense of wanderlust without urgency. As always, this calming podcast unfolds at an unhurried pace, offering a relaxing conversation designed to help you fall asleep, ease anxiety, or quiet racing thoughts. It’s perfect for background listening at bedtime or during a middle-of-the-night wake-up — steady voices, thoughtful reflections, and easy companionship to guide you toward rest.

​From Podcast Dreams to Travel Schemes A Chat with Amanda Cupido

(Original airdate" October 30, 2024)

Marco Timpano welcomes Amanda Cupido to the podcast today
Marco I'm your host, Marco Timpano, and joining me today is Amanda. But not the Amanda you might be thinking of. I have a special guest who's in the studio. Amanda Capito is here with me today. And before I get Amanda to say hello, I just want to say Amanda is one of the reasons I was able to bring this podcast to you, our listeners. Because when I started podcasting I didn't know what I was doing or how to do it. And Amanda's book was the first one book and it was a quintessential book for me on my podcast journey that brought me here today. So it's a great honour for me to welcome Amanda Cupido to the podcast today.

Amanda Cupido:  Thank you, Marco. That's so nice. I'm, like, flushing over here.

Marco Timpano:  You wrote a wonderful book, and there's a few things that I really loved about it. One, that it was written by a Canadian podcaster, and as a Canadian podcaster at the time, there was so few of us out there, and there were so few of our stories being told, and I just. I just was so grateful. So thank you so much for. For bringing that book to light.

Amanda Cupido:  Oh, well, you're so welcome. And that was. I started writing it in 2016, and then it came out in 2018, and so much has changed since then. But, I was very aware that the Canadian landscape specifically didn't have a lot of literature, and I was happy to add to it.

Marco Timpano:  I should mention to our listeners, it's called let's Talk the Essential Guide to Doing It Right. And second edition is coming out, isn't it, Amanda?

Amanda Cupido:  It's here. I'm so excited to share it with the world. This has been a long time coming, and there's a lot that's changed in the world, but in podcasting for sure. So, it's a great time for a new edition. And so six new chapters, six new

Marco Timpano:  chapters behind the scenes, all kinds of things that your, readers will be able to grasp onto, get information that they need to start podcasting. I can't recommend this book enough. I teach a podcasting course, and it's on my reading list, just so you're aware.

Amanda Cupido:  Thank you.

Marco Timpano:  If you're interested in, reading about podcasting, starting your own podcasting journey, start here and you can get this book [email protected] is that correct?

Amanda Cupido:  That's it. LetstalkPodcasting.com and I will have that link

Marco Timpano:  in our show notes for anyone who wants to go out there along with the book.


You have a sleep podcast called how to Fall Asleep Fast

You have a couple of podcasts, and I'm happy to say that, you're the first person from another sleep podcast to be on our podcast. So you have a sleep podcast called how to Fall Asleep Fast?

Amanda Cupido:  Yes. So this is new.

Marco Timpano:  How old is this podcast?

Amanda Cupido:  It just launched in June, so it's still pretty new. But we've been receiving such positive feedback. It's been charting all over the world. We hit number one in the leisure category on Apple within the first two months, and so we've just been overwhelmed with the response.

Marco Timpano:  Congratulations. That's so wonderful. You know, I say the Insomnia Project is about how to fall asleep slowly. some of our listeners will always be like, ah, I made it halfway through your episode and I have to go back. And it's like, no, you don't have to finish the episode to. I'd like you to fall asleep before you get to the end. But our listeners tend to go back, so that's so great.


How to fall asleep fast is the most Googled term around sleep

What is one thing that's come out of doing that podcast that surprised you?

Amanda Cupido:  Well, and I write about this in the book because I had never actively tried to hit number one on Apple. And so this was me trying to, like, you know, work the system. and we tried to push the boundaries along the way. And so how to fall asleep fast. I know we laugh because, you know, falling asleep slowly sounds much more relaxing, but how to fall asleep fast is the most Googled term around sleep. Oh. So this was an SEO, a search engine optimization play. So in Canada, the U.S. the UK and Australia, number one searched term, searched phrase. So that's how we. So we really were responsive to the community that tended to need sleep. And that's how we came up with the name. We did a lot of, focus groups before we released episodes on what was helping people sleep, what kind of length of episode. And so the episodes include a one minute meditation from me and then a one hour original composition from my husband, which most of them include binaural beats. So these are different frequencies in each channel in your ear, creating a third perceived frequency that is scientifically proven to help bring you into a theta or delta state of mind, which is, for sleep.

Marco Timpano:  Yeah, I love that you, know, I wish that chapter was in the book when I read it, because the Insomnia Project is one of the worst titles of a podcast that I have. And it was just a lark that we used it as the title of our podcast because I didn't think I could podcast at the time, or I thought it was going to be such a challenge that it was born from a Nuit Blanche exhibition. So we're like, maybe if we do it as an exhibit at Nuit Blanche, we'll be able to figure out the podcasting angle of it.

Amanda Cupido:  And.

Marco Timpano:  And that's how it got its name. And that's art.

Amanda Cupido:  That's great art.

Marco Timpano:  Right? Right.

Amanda Cupido:  That's good.


Your other podcast is called Forefront. And can you tell us about that

Marco Timpano:  So your other podcast is called Forefront. And can you tell us about that?

Amanda Cupido:  Yes. So the Forefront ideas for Cities is the series, and I'm the host of it, and it is a narrative podcast. Produced in conjunction with Toronto Metropolitan University, formerly Ryerson. And so the idea is we take big problems that Canadians are facing and then look at the research that's coming out of the university and think tanks and the community around it. They're helping to try to solve that big problem. So some of the problems are, like loneliness in aging populations, of course. Right. A big thing that, the National Institute of Aging has done some research around, in Canada specifically. Another problem is inclusivity in the fashion industry. Oh, yeah. Profile a fashion designer who's included braille on her, on her designs and on clothing.

Marco Timpano:  How wonderful.

Amanda Cupido:  Really neat stories. Really interesting. these are all in the upcoming season that's just launched that season five. but even if you go in the back catalog, a lot of the issues are really interesting to learn about and to. To really think about their issues that might be around us that we don't even really realize how prevalent they are or what kind of work is being done to try to combat it.

Marco Timpano:  Wow, that's fascinating. So forefront, once again, you'll find these. I'll have links to this in the show notes. And, you can hear Amanda, as the host of that podcast. Do you have any other podcasts on the horizon that you can mention?

Amanda Cupido:  Oh, well, I always have podcasts on the horizon. I will say, I'm in development with a really exciting one that pits two industries against each other. I'll just say that. Yes.

Marco Timpano:  Will you let us know when this is going to launch so we can mention it on our podcast?

Amanda Cupido:  I would be happy to. Yes, you could stay tuned. That'll be in 2025.

Marco Timpano:  Okay, fantastic. Something to look forward to. Let me ask you this.


What's the most interesting thing you've learned as a podcaster

What's the most interesting thing you've learned as a podcaster?

Amanda Cupido:  Wow, that's such a great question. I think I'm learning all the time is the reality. And because the industry's changing and even what's considered a best practice is changing. you know, a personal growth for me is actually getting into the sleep space and even learning how to use my voice in a different way. I'm usually a broadcast. Like I've been, a trained broadcast journalist. And so even right now, I'm being so intentional. I'm trying to be softer with my voice. And. And that was a good growth for me. Where some people, this kind of tone and pacing comes really naturally. Where I had to really practice how do I use my voice in a different way other than going into broadcast mode, which is my default.

Marco Timpano:  Yeah. Channeling into that part of your voice, that part of your being that can slow things down. I know I always have a challenge with it. One time we did an episode about cutlery.

Amanda Cupido:  Okay.

Marco Timpano:  And my co host, like, we have these. We. We do, symbols like this, especially for me when. Because I speed up and I get very energized. So I'm basically moving my hands up and down, back and forth. And that's the symbol that Amanda will use with me. Amanda Barker, my co host or Nidhi, would use to me to tell me, you need to slow down. And I did this cutlery episode where all of a sudden I started talking about ladles, and I got really excited and really dynamic, and they're all like, you. You talked about ladles and you really got excited. And I'm sure you woke people up. And they're like, why ladles? And I go, I have no idea. On any given day,

Amanda Cupido:  that's so funny. But I think that also just goes to show who you are as a person, and if you could find joy in little things like ladles, I think life becomes a lot happier. So kudos to you.

Marco Timpano:  You know what's funny? I studied journalism, too. I had studied. I did a joint program with York University and Seneca College. So journalism was one area that I was thinking of getting into when. When my path turned into comedy and then comedy, theater, film, and podcasting. And so I've done quite a few things to get me here today.


How did you find your way to podcasting

so I just think it's interesting that both of us are podcasters, both of us are Canadian podcasters and have a background in journalism. How did you find your way to podcasting?

Amanda Cupido:  Yes, and I think that's also, really indicative of the. The medium as a whole. People have these windy roads to podcasting, which I actually think is quite interesting, and it can really, you know, you'll be surprised who ends up here. but I. I found my way to podcasting in a more linear way than most, which was that I was studying journalism and radio and audio, and I was in the audio world professionally and always, but really loving it and truly wanting to explore and make some extra money. And so I started making podcasts on the side. I had made some as a student before most of my friends even knew what podcasts were. but I had been making them on the side since I started working in radio. And as I continued into my radio journey, I just kept banging on about podcasts until they became popular enough to. To warrant some attention. at least from some of the places I was working. And so my first podcast was in 2010, was for a magazine and I was doing it just on the side for them. I was. I was brought on to be a writer, but insisted I also make them a podcast. And if you look very hard, that podcast still exists on the Internet in the. In the depths of the Internet.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Amanda Cupido:  but then I didn't. And then I was at one point working in a communications role at a nonprofit and I called myself an intrapreneur because within the organization I brought. It was a legacy organization and I brought a lot of new, ideas and I produced several podcasts for them. and that's when I got a lot of great case studies. I had some clients on the side. My book came out. And then I finally took the plunge to launching my own podcast production company, lead podcasting in 2020.

Marco Timpano:  That's wonderful.


Do you remember the first podcast you listened to

Do you remember the first podcast you listened to?

Amanda Cupido:  You know, it's so hard because I was probably listening to some weird audio stuff that was being uploaded. But the one that, that like sticks in my mind, a couple that stick in my mind at really early days was that I was listening to Spark cbc.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Amanda Cupido:  With. Which was a technology podcast. And it was like a radio show, but also uploaded online as a podcast. And I loved that show. and I also listened to 99 Invisible and I remember there was this like, episode about the design of barcodes. And I also listened to an episode about the design of, the revolving door. And I like so clearly can picture myself sitting in the backseat of my parents car listening to these audio stories from, Yeah. And. Or telling them about it. And I don't even know how I was accessing them. I didn't have an Apple iPhone, but I hadn't. I had one of the very, very early Apple ipods.

Marco Timpano:  Yes.

Amanda Cupido:  So I'm wondering if it was like I downloaded an app through there. It was when. When the ipod looked like an iPhone, but it was just an ipod, if you remember that iteration.

Marco Timpano:  Yes, I do. And I remember my friend wanted it for Christmas and it was a really big pur. Because that particular expensive too Ipod could hold a lot, a lot more than the smaller ones that you could just kind of scroll like that with. Right. If I'm not mistaken.

Amanda Cupido:  That's right. That's right.


Are You a techie? Are you someone who likes tech

Marco Timpano:  So one of my biggest challenges, for this podcast is coming up with topics for the show. And you've given me to barcodes and revolving doors. So I've written that down. Those are two topics I have not talked about. Are You a techie? Are you someone who likes tech? Because you've mentioned it twice. So I'm like, I bet you're a techie.

Amanda Cupido:  I, so I, I feel like a capital T techie is a big title. I sure I can't play with like the Mark Saltzman's of the world who always know the latest gadget. love that guy, but I, he's great.

Marco Timpano:  He's so great.

Amanda Cupido:  He's great. He's so great.

Marco Timpano:  What I like about him is, is how he distills his knowledge in a very friendly, non tech kind of way. And you know, he knows everything about anything tech. Right.

Amanda Cupido:  Truly anything. He knows everything. He's so smart. But yes, he's so eye level and and I, I just appreciate what he does so much. So I, I always learn from him when I'm talking to him. But, but I am into technology. I, I recently actually got a certificate in artificial intelligence from the University of Oxford. So congrats. thank you. I'm very interested in, in the intersection of audio and AI. and I, and I feel genuinely curious when new technology comes out and I love to just play around and experiment with it. I'm not an expert in it all, but I'm definitely one of the people who are intrigued by it and not, not shying away or scared of learning a new technology.

Marco Timpano:  AI kind of frightened me at first and then I was like, I need to try it. So I opened up a new Gmail account where it couldn't connect with me because I was all nervous about it. And now it's changed my life for the better. I use it to help me and some of my students use it now for podcasting, for designing their logo and a whole bunch of things. It's pretty incred.

Amanda Cupido:  Great. Yeah. Very powerful shift.


Is there a piece of tech that you enjoy or it has changed your life

Marco Timpano:  Oh, before that, I just want to ask, is there a piece of tech that you have that you really enjoy or it has changed your life.

Amanda Cupido:  So. Well, one that. Okay, I'm going to answer, I'm going to give two answers because one is more like a software. So I don't know if it counts as tech, but I will say and this is not paid.

Marco Timpano:  This is just genuinely on this podcast, everything counts. So whatever you want, whatever you want to say.

Amanda Cupido:  So Calendly, which is the booking software when I. That has been a game changer for me. The. So this is. If you don't know Calendly or some people use Acuity, there's, there's lots of different, versions of this Google Also, I think has just, released a lean version of this where you can sync it up with your calendar and it could show your availability, but you could create different versions of your availability for different people and send it to them to book time in your calendar. And so I was just, you know, the amount of time I saved from going back and forth with people, and I was like, do I get a virtual assistant? And no, I just got calendly. And that saved me so much time with booking. And because I have a lot of meetings and these sorts of connections, like even interview requests, it's. It's been very easy to lean on that. I use that all the time. So even with my own team at lead podcasting, they will check my calendar to see when they can grab some time with me. But it's, it's great. Prevents that back and forth. So that's like a software, really. It's not a. It's not something you're holding in your hand. but as far as. As something that you would hold in your hand, I do feel like. And again, maybe a loose definition of technology, but I am such a fan of, massage.

Marco Timpano:  Okay. Yeah.

Amanda Cupido:  And I have a hand massager.

Marco Timpano:  Is it the. The one that punches? We call it a puncher kind of punch. It has, like, a little bulbous end you can punch.

Amanda Cupido:  It's. No, those are. That's good too. But this is literally. It looks like a giant glove, like a plastic glove that you put your hand in, and then it, like, moves and heats and like, it. It's. And I have carpal tunnel. Oh.

Marco Timpano:  So it massages your hand.

Amanda Cupido:  Your whole hand.

Marco Timpano:  I thought you put it on like, you know, the Hulk gloves that kids wear, and then you massage people with it. But it's for your hands. Oh, this is amazing.

Amanda Cupido:  Your own hands.

Marco Timpano:  Oh, I love this.

Amanda Cupido:  It's so nice. And so I will. And my husband bought it for me because he knows and I think I'm just like. I grip the mouse really tightly when I'm working and editing, you know? So, yeah, it's like a hand massager. It's amazing.

Marco Timpano:  Isn't it amazing how something like that can change your life.

Amanda Cupido:  Yes.

Marco Timpano:  We recently got. I don't know if we've mentioned this on the podcast yet. We had to replace our mattress. So we got a, platform to put the mattress on that can raise up and down your feet, up your feet, down and whatnot. Right. Because my wife was like, I'm tired of propping up pillows behind my head to watch the Television? Yes, we have a television in our room. And it's probably not good for people who can't sleep, but that's where we are. And so we were like, oh, let's get that. And then we realized it has a massage feature. Like, it'll. It'll. And it's changed our life, and it actually helps us fall asleep quicker. And, oftentimes it's like, I just need to raise my feet and give them a shake. And so that's what we do.

Amanda Cupido:  Okay, I'm gonna need the link to that. You gotta put that in the show notes, too.

Marco Timpano:  I'm happy to. You know, it's funny. When we went to the mattress store to get it, Amanda was laying on it, and she's like, oh, this is great. I can go up. And we're like, what's the difference between these two, besides price? and the person who was helping us was like, oh, there's no real difference. She was like, the only difference is you can lower the legs on the more expensive ones. So Amanda's like, oh, we might want that feature. And she got on it, and when I went to go sign some paperwork or whatnot, I got back, and I could see her shaking on the bed. I'm like, what's going on? She goes, it has a massage feature. And I'm like, is it good or is it silly? And she's like, it's fantastic. So I'm like, okay, we're getting that. And we haven't regretted it since.

Amanda Cupido:  Oh, I am so jealous. That sounds amazing.

Marco Timpano:  It's great. I love talking to people who have, like, you know, like, this hand thing that you're. To the hand massager. Sounds fun. Yeah, fantastic, too.


I'm a hand model, too, which is a weird thing

I'm a hand model, too, which is a weird thing.

Amanda Cupido:  I didn't know that.

Marco Timpano:  It's. It's the weirdest thing. And when I tell people, and it's so. It's so an uninteresting thing on my end of things, but it's so unique that people find it very interesting. I just have very still hands. So if I hold a product, it features it well. It's one of the reasons. So I should get that. Because, you know, after a day of hand.

Amanda Cupido:  Hand work, they deserve some pampering.

Marco Timpano:  Right?


What's the most memorable vacation you've ever taken

Speaking of pampering, what's the most memorable vacation you've ever taken?

Amanda Cupido:  I'm a big traveler, Marco.

Marco Timpano:  Oh, this is. Well, listen, I. I didn't go. I had to meet you because I'm. We're big travelers, too, so I need to. I need to hear this.

Amanda Cupido:  Okay. Well. Okay. Can I pick. Can I pick three places?

Marco Timpano:  As many as you want.

Amanda Cupido:  I always ask. Okay. So I just very, First is the recent one. I very recently went to Malta, south of Sicily. It's amazing. All right. Malta is the most underrated country. I almost stayed there and just did a PR campaign for the whole country because.

Marco Timpano:  Did you go to the Popeye Village? That's there. Did you go to the Popeye Village?

Amanda Cupido:  Have you been?

Marco Timpano:  I haven't, but Amanda, my wife really wants to go to Malta.

Amanda Cupido:  Okay. And I'll give you the lowdown.

Marco Timpano:  Okay.

Amanda Cupido:  You've heard it here first. Yes. Popeye Village is run down. Okay. Don't go. Okay. Like Robin Williams movie. Which is in theory cool, but we saw photos of it and we just. And it's very. It's a little bit out of the way and they are proud of it, but it's not. I don't think it's worth it because there's so many better things. Okay. So Malta has the oldest ruins that indicate there was a civilization older than the pyramids, older than Stonehenge. Oldest, oldest indicator of civilization is in Malta. They don't even talk about it. And it is this underground multi floor temple with paintings that are still on the walls that they found sculptures that were incredible, that, that were from like 5000 BC.

Marco Timpano:  I love it.

Amanda Cupido:  They think, right. And they didn't have tools. They were using stone on stone to create like it was. And you could. And they only let 10 people in at a time. And you can walk down there and go see it. And we, we got our hands on some tickets. And so the history, if you're a history buff, and I love good history. It's. It's a. I was emotional. It was really special, and I had no idea. And then they also have really beautiful beaches. Like, the water is so clear. And. And it's like all these little islands around Malta that you could take a little boat to. And you're like the only one on this beach. And it's like stunning. Crystal clear blue waters. And then they also have amazing food. It's like Arabic and Italian food mixed.

Marco Timpano:  Yeah.

Amanda Cupido:  So what more can you ask for? It was just like, so nice. So beautiful.

Marco Timpano:  A place of intersection with absolute beauty. I can't wait to go.


Number two is Ecuador which I feel like is underrated as well

Amanda Cupido:  Yeah. So add that to your list. Okay. That was one. Number two is Ecuador, which I feel like is underrated as well. And I did the Galapagos Island Islands, which were amazing. I was snorkeling. You don't even have to. I have a scuba license. But you don't even have to scuba. You just snorkel down. I held a starfish the size of both my hands. I snorkeled with eagle rays, which is a very weird offshoot of a stingray and like a human face on them. It's very interesting.

Marco Timpano:  I'm riding that town. Eagle rays?

Amanda Cupido:  Yes, eagle rays. Sharks. I swam with sharks. Turtles that were the size of my body. Like incredible. But then on the other side, I was in the Amazon and I spent three nights in the jungle.

Marco Timpano:  Wow.

Amanda Cupido:  With like monkeys jumping over a river that I was canoeing down. And I saw a real life tarantula in the, in the, you know, in the greenery that was the forest. And they said that you don't even know all the species of bugs and insects that live there yet. And it was. And then, then you get the city. Quito is like bumping party. Really great central city. And then we went to Cuenca, which had like Incan ruins. And you think the ruins are only in Peru but, but Ecuador's got the same sort of thing. So like, wow. Like the vastness. If you travel that country, it's just like incredible.

Marco Timpano:  It sounds like a pendulum swings like to the, you know, beginning of time and nature and creatures that that you, you like. The pendulum swings one way. You get to the beginning of time and creatures and animals that people don't get to see. And then you go, it swings the other way and you're in a modern city with, you know, happening things. It sounds awesome.

Amanda Cupido:  Yeah, it is. It was really something special.

Marco Timpano:  And it's hot too, right? It's really hot.

Amanda Cupido:  So nice. So nice. The third one was Egypt. As you know, I'm like history. I do love history. Yeah. So seeing the pyramids and I went and swam in the Red Sea and took a cruise down the Nile and drank the best hibiscus tea, and learned and I went into, I got to see King Tut's tomb. I went into the Valley of the Kings. It just happened to be open when I was there. They don't. They open it like kind of. They roll. There's a rolling opening of different tombs. So I happened to be able to go see King Tut which is actually. King Tut's tomb is very bland because they didn't think he was going to die. He was so young. I wasn't prepared. but then there was some, there was other, there was other incredible tombs in the Valley of the Kings that ah, made me emotional. Like, it was, it was really, really special.

Marco Timpano:  So, yeah, it's absolutely wonderful. Thank you. For those three places. We're often talking about places we want to go to or places we visited, and we have our listeners from all over the world who reach out and, you know, some of, some of our listeners will tell us places to go to, and we just have such a great time when we end up in those places. So, I appreciate that. yeah, if you're ever in Otto, if you're ever in Ottawa, there is a spa that one of our listeners invited us to go to, which is called Nordic. It's in Chelsea, Quebec. And I, I, every time I go or every time I mention it to, to one, one of my friends and they go and they have such a great time, I'm always like, one of my listeners reached out and told us about it, and I'm so grateful.

Amanda Cupido:  that's so nice. I've heard of this. I've never been, though, so I've got to add it to the list because, as you know, I love a massage, I love a spa. So gotta add it.

Marco Timpano:  Well, there you go.


Let's Talk Podcasting is the Essential Guide to doing it right

So as we reach the end of this episode, I just want to remind our listeners, if you're interested in getting let's Talk Podcasting, the Essential Guide to doing it right, second edition, you can go to letstalkpodcasting.com and there's six new chapters in it. And let me just, set the record straight. This is if you know anyone who wants to get into podcasting. Great Christmas gift or holiday gift? that's the book that I would recommend, and I've written a book about podcasting. For me, this is the quintessential book as well. If you need to fall asleep fast and this podcast isn't doing it for you, check out how to Fall Asleep Fast, with Amanda, and you'll enjoy that. And if you want, to be on the forefront of things or know what's going on in our city, in our country, but it'll relate to places all over the world, check out Forefront with Amanda as the host. Amanda, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast.

Amanda Cupido:  Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to have been able to come on and to talk with your listeners, too, and I wish them a restful, peaceful sleep.

Marco Timpano:  Thank you. And, well, hopefully you'll come back to our podcast because we'd love to have you back.

Amanda Cupido:  Yes, we've got to do this again for sure.

Marco Timpano:  Wonderful. Until then, listeners, I hope you were able to listen and sleep.